Even if teenage boys are on the whole much less likely to be victims of underage sex (with men or women), I don’t think the law or social norms should in any way encourage (or at least not actively discourage) teenage boys to have sex underage. Even if they’re lusting after a hot older woman who’s ’up for it’, their relative immaturity and inexperience makes them highly vulnerable to exploitation by the older woman.
To put it more bluntly. If you’re a ‘hot’ older woman with a teenage boy lusting after you, you’ve got him figuratively (and pretty much literally) by the balls.
First off, eggcellent article. No joke, hope this gets shared wide, its extremely well reasoned. I've thought same as a man actually, but never seen a woman write this. It is actually manipulative/rapey/weird when women age gap down. I agree, typical modern response is something like - the dude wuz lucky, wish I cudda been lucki too - but ur right this is just kicking can down the road. In that, the dude isnt gonna learn how to have healthy relationshipz by bangin some 35 yr old in heat (lol) and it's not productive to women long term either really. Great article!
Excellent article, well written and very good reasoning, while at the same time communicating what can be a tricky idea with boring prurient aspects.
I’m a gay man and my take is quite simple, that people who are not an adult cannot consent to things which we deem only adults can consent to. It’s categorical, and not sex-based.
It may be medical procedures, it can be sex, it could be contracts, getting tattoos, buying pornography, risking their life in war, using alcohol or drugs, using firearms, there are probably a few hundred items which are potentially life-altering and cannot be consented to.
There’s an imagination that boys wish to have sex with adult women, which is the eye-wink aspect. It’s a staple of film (“The Last Picture Show”) but I think boy “prodigies” of sex are as rare as those of music, math, physics and art, which is to say one or two a generation.
There is much to be said about age differences between men, between men and women, and between women that relate to this but perhaps when it’s a more focused discussion. My husband is 86, I’m 61. Many of my friends are the same age range or more. I’ve heard every possible criticism and found them amusing.
Thank you very much, Sufeitzy! I agree with you. I had also wanted to write a bit more about how making these laws gender neutral impacted same sex couples - in Jailbait Cocca claims that there’s evidence that parents used these laws to punish their children more heavily if engaged in homosexual relationships even if they were likely consensual. I couldn’t confirm that claim but I think it’s plausible that these laws would be used to police gay men in particular. Still, at the end of the day I think we should have them and even if charges are not levied in a way that’s “fair” in terms of the proportion of homosexual vs heterosexual couples charged, the people getting charged nevertheless broke the law.
It would have been a dream come true to have been "raped" by a grown woman at any age above about 9 .. that is a simple hard fact. And it would have done nothing but made me much more confident and successful throughout my life.
While I’d put the age at 13 for me, I agree 100%. Having sex probably occupies the thoughts of teen boys 50% or more of the day. Women have no idea how testosterone affects our brains.
I think a broader consideration is whether an underage boy has the emotional maturity to understand the consequences of his action, to consider that what might seem like a good idea at the time might have long-term emotional effects. It also strikes me that a sexual encounter between a 19 year old and a 17 year old is very different than one between a 30 year old and a 16 year old, so it feels like some context should be considered.
I believe part of the issue in the way we approach the statutory rape of boys is that we rely heavily on intuition with respect to their ability and willingness to consent. There is little in the way of much research about boys who are victimized by older women, and it's worth noting that public policy shouldn't rely on "self-evident" differences between the sexes. After all, such assumptions were the basis for laws and institutions that blatantly discriminated against women for millennia.
For what it's worth, there does seem to be a generational divide on this topic. Whenever I read a comment from a Gen X or Boomer man, it's usually something along the lines of, "Where was she when I was young." In contrast, men around my age or younger bristle at the apparent double-standard in our society. I'll also note that when men do talk *earnestly* about having an early sexual experience with a much older woman, there is evidence of trauma, shame, and regret. And as a veteran, I can attest to the fact that there are many terrible experiences men will wear on their chests as "badges of honor" and laugh off instead of outwardly acknowledging the trauma they endured.
Maybe it's because I spent six years in the Army typecasted as that one liberal guy who doesn't judge, but on subjects ranging from sexual abuse to war to unresolved problems with parents, the way a lot of guys described something in the shop with the boys was different than the way they described it to me in a private conversation (especially alone in my room after a night of drunken barracks shenanigans).
I'm very, very skeptical of attempts to lower the age of consent for boys or place an additional evidentiary burden on prosecutors who levy charges against female perpetrators, especially when this is an understudied issue clouded by expectations for normal male behavior. I have the feeling a lot of survivors are concerned that others would dismiss their experiences and question their masculinity if they were honest about being statutorily raped by a woman. As you noted at the beginning of this article, "...male victims of sexual assault deserve just as much empathy, particularly because they often have to wrestle with an additional layer of shame before they’re even able to share these experiences."
There are so many actions, ideas and behaviours that cause stress and anxiety for teenage boys and girls but we should be reluctant to make them illegal unless we are certain that doing so makes the world better. For all these permutations of who is having sex with whom, there will be occasions where sex results in delight and occasions where it results in pain and misery but the delight is more likely in some permutations than others. If we must pass laws to ban sex in certain circumstances, we should try to avoid banning the circumstances where delight is the most likely outcome. I’m not sure we got the balance right.
As a teenager in the 80s in England, the age limit was 16 but I knew plenty of couples who were having sex much younger and arresting them would not have made anyone’s life better. Practically every 15-year-old boy I knew would have been delighted to have sex with an older woman but the idea was so fantastical it was practically hypothetical. At 19, I woke up to find myself being raped by an older woman at a party after too much to drink. It was annoying but it wasn't the end of my world. In the other gender-direction, it would have led to a prison sentence and appropriately so.
It seems to me that there was a desire in the 70s and 80s to treat sex offences with consistency regardless of gender for political reasons weren’t justified by cultural history or experience. I think we got the balance wrong and — worse — we tried to write the rules in black and white.
I think most teenagers should be experimenting with sex when they are ready and involving the law — except in properly abusive cases — is not helpful.
Maybe this is a newer way of looking at it, but don’t feminists believe that age gap relationships between older men and women who are minors (or close to being minors) are wrong even when consensual? I believe that the thinking is that those relationships are inherently unequal/hierarchical, and therefore harmful, even without any real coercion. If that’s the case, why would it be different for boys?
Forget about minors or close to being minors, large age gap relationships between 2 clear adults is creepy. Like between a 30 year old and 60 year old. Or a 50 year old and an 73 year old.
Broadly agree with your conclusion here.
Even if teenage boys are on the whole much less likely to be victims of underage sex (with men or women), I don’t think the law or social norms should in any way encourage (or at least not actively discourage) teenage boys to have sex underage. Even if they’re lusting after a hot older woman who’s ’up for it’, their relative immaturity and inexperience makes them highly vulnerable to exploitation by the older woman.
To put it more bluntly. If you’re a ‘hot’ older woman with a teenage boy lusting after you, you’ve got him figuratively (and pretty much literally) by the balls.
First off, eggcellent article. No joke, hope this gets shared wide, its extremely well reasoned. I've thought same as a man actually, but never seen a woman write this. It is actually manipulative/rapey/weird when women age gap down. I agree, typical modern response is something like - the dude wuz lucky, wish I cudda been lucki too - but ur right this is just kicking can down the road. In that, the dude isnt gonna learn how to have healthy relationshipz by bangin some 35 yr old in heat (lol) and it's not productive to women long term either really. Great article!
I respectfully disagree.
Excellent article, well written and very good reasoning, while at the same time communicating what can be a tricky idea with boring prurient aspects.
I’m a gay man and my take is quite simple, that people who are not an adult cannot consent to things which we deem only adults can consent to. It’s categorical, and not sex-based.
It may be medical procedures, it can be sex, it could be contracts, getting tattoos, buying pornography, risking their life in war, using alcohol or drugs, using firearms, there are probably a few hundred items which are potentially life-altering and cannot be consented to.
There’s an imagination that boys wish to have sex with adult women, which is the eye-wink aspect. It’s a staple of film (“The Last Picture Show”) but I think boy “prodigies” of sex are as rare as those of music, math, physics and art, which is to say one or two a generation.
There is much to be said about age differences between men, between men and women, and between women that relate to this but perhaps when it’s a more focused discussion. My husband is 86, I’m 61. Many of my friends are the same age range or more. I’ve heard every possible criticism and found them amusing.
Thank you very much, Sufeitzy! I agree with you. I had also wanted to write a bit more about how making these laws gender neutral impacted same sex couples - in Jailbait Cocca claims that there’s evidence that parents used these laws to punish their children more heavily if engaged in homosexual relationships even if they were likely consensual. I couldn’t confirm that claim but I think it’s plausible that these laws would be used to police gay men in particular. Still, at the end of the day I think we should have them and even if charges are not levied in a way that’s “fair” in terms of the proportion of homosexual vs heterosexual couples charged, the people getting charged nevertheless broke the law.
It's a really interesting line of inquiry. Thanks for looking into it.
Thank you very much, Richard!
It would have been a dream come true to have been "raped" by a grown woman at any age above about 9 .. that is a simple hard fact. And it would have done nothing but made me much more confident and successful throughout my life.
While I’d put the age at 13 for me, I agree 100%. Having sex probably occupies the thoughts of teen boys 50% or more of the day. Women have no idea how testosterone affects our brains.
I think a broader consideration is whether an underage boy has the emotional maturity to understand the consequences of his action, to consider that what might seem like a good idea at the time might have long-term emotional effects. It also strikes me that a sexual encounter between a 19 year old and a 17 year old is very different than one between a 30 year old and a 16 year old, so it feels like some context should be considered.
It's all so confusing and the reason why celibacy is the answer.
I believe part of the issue in the way we approach the statutory rape of boys is that we rely heavily on intuition with respect to their ability and willingness to consent. There is little in the way of much research about boys who are victimized by older women, and it's worth noting that public policy shouldn't rely on "self-evident" differences between the sexes. After all, such assumptions were the basis for laws and institutions that blatantly discriminated against women for millennia.
For what it's worth, there does seem to be a generational divide on this topic. Whenever I read a comment from a Gen X or Boomer man, it's usually something along the lines of, "Where was she when I was young." In contrast, men around my age or younger bristle at the apparent double-standard in our society. I'll also note that when men do talk *earnestly* about having an early sexual experience with a much older woman, there is evidence of trauma, shame, and regret. And as a veteran, I can attest to the fact that there are many terrible experiences men will wear on their chests as "badges of honor" and laugh off instead of outwardly acknowledging the trauma they endured.
Maybe it's because I spent six years in the Army typecasted as that one liberal guy who doesn't judge, but on subjects ranging from sexual abuse to war to unresolved problems with parents, the way a lot of guys described something in the shop with the boys was different than the way they described it to me in a private conversation (especially alone in my room after a night of drunken barracks shenanigans).
I'm very, very skeptical of attempts to lower the age of consent for boys or place an additional evidentiary burden on prosecutors who levy charges against female perpetrators, especially when this is an understudied issue clouded by expectations for normal male behavior. I have the feeling a lot of survivors are concerned that others would dismiss their experiences and question their masculinity if they were honest about being statutorily raped by a woman. As you noted at the beginning of this article, "...male victims of sexual assault deserve just as much empathy, particularly because they often have to wrestle with an additional layer of shame before they’re even able to share these experiences."
This kind of thing was not uncommon during my teen years where I grew up. It was nothing you publicized, but also nothing where anyone was “harmed”.
Great article. Very thought-provoking.
There are so many actions, ideas and behaviours that cause stress and anxiety for teenage boys and girls but we should be reluctant to make them illegal unless we are certain that doing so makes the world better. For all these permutations of who is having sex with whom, there will be occasions where sex results in delight and occasions where it results in pain and misery but the delight is more likely in some permutations than others. If we must pass laws to ban sex in certain circumstances, we should try to avoid banning the circumstances where delight is the most likely outcome. I’m not sure we got the balance right.
As a teenager in the 80s in England, the age limit was 16 but I knew plenty of couples who were having sex much younger and arresting them would not have made anyone’s life better. Practically every 15-year-old boy I knew would have been delighted to have sex with an older woman but the idea was so fantastical it was practically hypothetical. At 19, I woke up to find myself being raped by an older woman at a party after too much to drink. It was annoying but it wasn't the end of my world. In the other gender-direction, it would have led to a prison sentence and appropriately so.
It seems to me that there was a desire in the 70s and 80s to treat sex offences with consistency regardless of gender for political reasons weren’t justified by cultural history or experience. I think we got the balance wrong and — worse — we tried to write the rules in black and white.
I think most teenagers should be experimenting with sex when they are ready and involving the law — except in properly abusive cases — is not helpful.
I thought boys matured later than girls. So age-based laws should be especially protective of male victims.
Maybe this is a newer way of looking at it, but don’t feminists believe that age gap relationships between older men and women who are minors (or close to being minors) are wrong even when consensual? I believe that the thinking is that those relationships are inherently unequal/hierarchical, and therefore harmful, even without any real coercion. If that’s the case, why would it be different for boys?
Forget about minors or close to being minors, large age gap relationships between 2 clear adults is creepy. Like between a 30 year old and 60 year old. Or a 50 year old and an 73 year old.
Speaking for yourself.
Most people get the ick from it. For a reason.