yes, largely, but I actually think her position is more extreme than mine in terms of her expectations of women. I think it's good that norms have changed to expect men not to pressure women into sex etc. even though they sometimes still will and women should be aware of and prepared for that. I don't think she would see Aziz Ansari's be…
yes, largely, but I actually think her position is more extreme than mine in terms of her expectations of women. I think it's good that norms have changed to expect men not to pressure women into sex etc. even though they sometimes still will and women should be aware of and prepared for that. I don't think she would see Aziz Ansari's behavior as unethical, as I do, for example. I also think she has said things that imply that once you've gone up to someone's apartment or initiated sexual contact that you can't cry victim if you change your mind midway through and the man doesn't respond accordingly. I disagree with this. I think both parties can at any time choose to stop a sexual interaction and that if the other person doesn't comply with that request they are assaulting them. I agree with her that, from a safety perspective, if you know you don't want to have sex it might be unwise to go to a private place with a man, especially if there's alcohol or drugs involved. But I think I expect significantly more from men in these situations than she does.
True, and yes her position was considered extremely provocative and controversial when her book came out. I remember because I wrote a paper on it for my debate class in high school and I recall some of my classmates being infuriated when it was my turn to read my paper. 😉
Though I read that Aziz story and my take was that it was just as much about the woman being upset at his conduct outside the bedroom (or I guess, his living room, in her story), than what happened sexually. She was expecting to go on a fancy date and to be able to brag to all her friends about dating a celebrity. That was the sense I got. And then all he did was buy a cheap glass of wine and want to go home and bone. She had expected to be wooed and instead she got treated like a booty call and I don't think that was at all what she'd expected. There was likely also some weird cross signals going there, where if not for him being a celebrity she would've thought him below her...he's a short skinny guy, not exactly dashingly handsome...so she thought he should be thankful to be on a date with her and underestimated how many sexual opportunities celebrities get, and that she was just one of hundreds. I don't think she wanted to admit to herself that she was basically acting like a groupie herself, and went out with him bc he was famous, not because she was attracted to him. Him treating her basically like a piece of meat was too much reality into what was going on and why they were on a date.
It's not a new observation, but him being a bit pushy and insistent is the type of behavior that rarely if ever bothers a woman if it's done by a guy who is sweeping her off her feet and that she's enamored by. Aziz being pushy was offensive bc there was a fundamental mismatch in their respective understandings of their relative status and purpose of their date.
Yeah, I had that same feeling after I read that account. It mostly just felt like crossed wires led to cringey, bad sex. There's this dumb game where men and women role play cat and mouse; it seems like Ansari thought that was what was going on, and she just went along with it rather than walking out.
And it seems like the author gave the woman no agency as if she didn’t know what she was doing when she wrote “But I also think so-called “Grace” failed herself through her inability to act to protect her own interests.”
Maybe by staying even when she realized Aziz wanted something she didn’t want, she was looking after her interests. Being on a date with a celeb was likely weighing heavily on her decision to stay. What if she could eventually after a couple of dates change his mind and get him to date her/commit to her?
The piece says we need to hold women accountable but in this scenario doesn’t allow any accountability that this woman may have known exactly what she was doing by continuing with the cringey awkward date/sex.
yes, largely, but I actually think her position is more extreme than mine in terms of her expectations of women. I think it's good that norms have changed to expect men not to pressure women into sex etc. even though they sometimes still will and women should be aware of and prepared for that. I don't think she would see Aziz Ansari's behavior as unethical, as I do, for example. I also think she has said things that imply that once you've gone up to someone's apartment or initiated sexual contact that you can't cry victim if you change your mind midway through and the man doesn't respond accordingly. I disagree with this. I think both parties can at any time choose to stop a sexual interaction and that if the other person doesn't comply with that request they are assaulting them. I agree with her that, from a safety perspective, if you know you don't want to have sex it might be unwise to go to a private place with a man, especially if there's alcohol or drugs involved. But I think I expect significantly more from men in these situations than she does.
True, and yes her position was considered extremely provocative and controversial when her book came out. I remember because I wrote a paper on it for my debate class in high school and I recall some of my classmates being infuriated when it was my turn to read my paper. 😉
Though I read that Aziz story and my take was that it was just as much about the woman being upset at his conduct outside the bedroom (or I guess, his living room, in her story), than what happened sexually. She was expecting to go on a fancy date and to be able to brag to all her friends about dating a celebrity. That was the sense I got. And then all he did was buy a cheap glass of wine and want to go home and bone. She had expected to be wooed and instead she got treated like a booty call and I don't think that was at all what she'd expected. There was likely also some weird cross signals going there, where if not for him being a celebrity she would've thought him below her...he's a short skinny guy, not exactly dashingly handsome...so she thought he should be thankful to be on a date with her and underestimated how many sexual opportunities celebrities get, and that she was just one of hundreds. I don't think she wanted to admit to herself that she was basically acting like a groupie herself, and went out with him bc he was famous, not because she was attracted to him. Him treating her basically like a piece of meat was too much reality into what was going on and why they were on a date.
It's not a new observation, but him being a bit pushy and insistent is the type of behavior that rarely if ever bothers a woman if it's done by a guy who is sweeping her off her feet and that she's enamored by. Aziz being pushy was offensive bc there was a fundamental mismatch in their respective understandings of their relative status and purpose of their date.
Yeah, I had that same feeling after I read that account. It mostly just felt like crossed wires led to cringey, bad sex. There's this dumb game where men and women role play cat and mouse; it seems like Ansari thought that was what was going on, and she just went along with it rather than walking out.
And it seems like the author gave the woman no agency as if she didn’t know what she was doing when she wrote “But I also think so-called “Grace” failed herself through her inability to act to protect her own interests.”
Maybe by staying even when she realized Aziz wanted something she didn’t want, she was looking after her interests. Being on a date with a celeb was likely weighing heavily on her decision to stay. What if she could eventually after a couple of dates change his mind and get him to date her/commit to her?
The piece says we need to hold women accountable but in this scenario doesn’t allow any accountability that this woman may have known exactly what she was doing by continuing with the cringey awkward date/sex.