Engagement rings do seem like an anachronistic remnant of the dowry era, but I have to admit that symbols can matter in relationships. Debates about the "usefulness" of engagement rings can sometimes seem similar to arguments about the "usefulness" of marriage. Yet I think it's hard to escape the usefulness of marriage as a symbol of relationship strength for most people. Engagement rings might hold a similar value for many people and I don't know if we should necessarily try to dissuade them too strongly.
Thinking of your comments about "barrier to exit," what if men proposed by putting a down payment on something that can be both showy and useful, like a desired car or dress instead?
I read this as a desired CAT rather than car... says a lot about me hahaha
I think you're right. I can't really defend the practice as rational but I also wanted a ring! And there's only so much that we can or should control our mildly irrational desires.
I think many women would like the practical gift, but I think to mirror an engagement ring it has to be primarily for the woman and not for the couple (so a down payment wouldn't quite work, although some women would prefer to forgo the expensive engagement gift in favor of putting money towards a shared project). That said, if we're thinking in evo bio terms the gift has to be kind of useless, or the man has to think it's useless for the indicator to have the same effect.
I acknowledge that expensive "symbols" like 3 month engagement rings, lavish weddings, exotic honeymoons, etc., can have high social value and that many individuals want them for other reasons. However, engaging in them has large opportunity costs. Such expenses can readily top a hundred grand which is nothing if you are a Gates (of the Microsoft Gates), etc. However, for normies such extreme one time expenses represents the loss of real value: paying off college debts, a down
payment on a home, capital to start a business, etc. There is nothing wrong with wanting them but actually spending that money on ephemera at the start of a relationship does not bode well for future financial wisdom...
There are two sets of people who dgaf about trends: the ones who create them, and the ones who don't participate in the rituals of the social pecking order.
I didn't know what they were either. Trying to signal status with something like a designer bag seems truly bizarre to me because I don't even understand who the signal is meant for. And what do you call it when a "status" symbol only works on an extremely limited target audience and actively indicates either LOW status or nothing to everyone else??
I can think of many examples...
Designer handbags signal to a small group of women who like them and everyone else either doesn't notice or thinks the bag haver is gauche it acts as a proxy for being an insecure, vain, social climbing airhead who enjoys wasting money.
Gold chains worn by a young male signal (I guess?) to his friends that he has some money and signals to everyone else the literal opposite, that he likely has no job or savings or credit history.
Modified cars with special mufflers to make them louder signal something to some hobbyist vehicle group and signal I'm a huge asshole please hate me to everyone else.
I mean, there is probably no "status symbol" that at least some people don't revile. But then there are others were the target group is dwarfed the much larger group that looks down on said symbol, and the target group isn't high status themselves, so the purpose is confusing.
Yes. I think the most high status signals wrt fashion are only readable by other high status women in the know, other people just notice the woman looks vaguely wealthy but wouldn’t be able to articulate exactly why. And as soon as people can recognize the symbol it becomes too low status for those women lol
Engagement rings do seem like an anachronistic remnant of the dowry era, but I have to admit that symbols can matter in relationships. Debates about the "usefulness" of engagement rings can sometimes seem similar to arguments about the "usefulness" of marriage. Yet I think it's hard to escape the usefulness of marriage as a symbol of relationship strength for most people. Engagement rings might hold a similar value for many people and I don't know if we should necessarily try to dissuade them too strongly.
Thinking of your comments about "barrier to exit," what if men proposed by putting a down payment on something that can be both showy and useful, like a desired car or dress instead?
I read this as a desired CAT rather than car... says a lot about me hahaha
I think you're right. I can't really defend the practice as rational but I also wanted a ring! And there's only so much that we can or should control our mildly irrational desires.
I think many women would like the practical gift, but I think to mirror an engagement ring it has to be primarily for the woman and not for the couple (so a down payment wouldn't quite work, although some women would prefer to forgo the expensive engagement gift in favor of putting money towards a shared project). That said, if we're thinking in evo bio terms the gift has to be kind of useless, or the man has to think it's useless for the indicator to have the same effect.
Counterpoint:
I acknowledge that expensive "symbols" like 3 month engagement rings, lavish weddings, exotic honeymoons, etc., can have high social value and that many individuals want them for other reasons. However, engaging in them has large opportunity costs. Such expenses can readily top a hundred grand which is nothing if you are a Gates (of the Microsoft Gates), etc. However, for normies such extreme one time expenses represents the loss of real value: paying off college debts, a down
payment on a home, capital to start a business, etc. There is nothing wrong with wanting them but actually spending that money on ephemera at the start of a relationship does not bode well for future financial wisdom...
Congratulations. 👍🙂
Though your essay reminded me of Vance Packard's The Status Seekers, and Thorstein Veblen's The Theory of the Leisure Class:
https://www.amazon.ca/Status-Seekers-Exploration-Behavior-Community/dp/067950091X
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Theory_of_the_Leisure_Class
But while I seem to recollect reading bits and pieces of both, that was quite some time back so don't remember many details.
I'm so glad that 100% of the status symbols and fashions name-checked in this article went over my head.
lol that's a high status counter signal
There are two sets of people who dgaf about trends: the ones who create them, and the ones who don't participate in the rituals of the social pecking order.
I didn't know what they were either. Trying to signal status with something like a designer bag seems truly bizarre to me because I don't even understand who the signal is meant for. And what do you call it when a "status" symbol only works on an extremely limited target audience and actively indicates either LOW status or nothing to everyone else??
I can think of many examples...
Designer handbags signal to a small group of women who like them and everyone else either doesn't notice or thinks the bag haver is gauche it acts as a proxy for being an insecure, vain, social climbing airhead who enjoys wasting money.
Gold chains worn by a young male signal (I guess?) to his friends that he has some money and signals to everyone else the literal opposite, that he likely has no job or savings or credit history.
Modified cars with special mufflers to make them louder signal something to some hobbyist vehicle group and signal I'm a huge asshole please hate me to everyone else.
I mean, there is probably no "status symbol" that at least some people don't revile. But then there are others were the target group is dwarfed the much larger group that looks down on said symbol, and the target group isn't high status themselves, so the purpose is confusing.
Yes. I think the most high status signals wrt fashion are only readable by other high status women in the know, other people just notice the woman looks vaguely wealthy but wouldn’t be able to articulate exactly why. And as soon as people can recognize the symbol it becomes too low status for those women lol
Are we indeed excited about yellow-gold these days? Good to know, I guess.