Organ donations have the additional advantage of avoiding the messy ethical issues you mentioned (abortion, change of plans, etc.). There is really no ethical case against compensated organ donations.
I'm sad to hear you've had those experiences and I appreciate you sharing your perspective.
But, I don't find the argument convincing. Of course, lower class people do a lot of stuff for money that middle class or wealthy people would never do.
You say that those laws will ultimately benefit all of us, but I don't feel you've made an argument explaining why you think that. I've talked about a case where a lot of people would be saved each year by something that people could voluntarily choose to do. When an individual chooses to trade it generally implies they think that the trade is good for them. I'm not suggesting it should be unregulated, they should definitely screen the types of unwell people you're mentioning out, and for kidney donors at least I believe they already require various tests.
I agree with you 100%. Episode 82 of Isabella Malbin’s podcast Whose Body Is It? is a good real world example of many of your points. The woman she interviewed, Marche, had severe endometriosis and as a last resort for a baby decided to use surrogacy, though it didn’t ultimately pan out. Her surrogate was a good friend who had children of her own and insisted she wanted to help a friend who couldn’t. They drafted a whole contract that stated what the surrogate could and couldn’t do, and of course payment, which was no small sum.
Marche describes a meeting she had with her friend after the procedure to implant embryos, during which her friend was eating a deli meat sandwich. This was against their contract due to the listeria risk. Marche describes getting extremely upset over her friend eating something that she explicitly told her not to. It was only in the years following that she realized how wrong it was for her to feel so upset over something an autonomous person chose to do. She felt in that moment she had authority over another person’s body. That she owned her friend’s body, just because she paid for it.
I can’t fathom any situation where that’s justifiable, especially when you consider how disproportionately it negatively impacts low income women.
Thanks for your comment - addressing some of the points:
- "How much risk of physical or psychological damage is there to working at McDonalds? Or as a home health aide? Or as a housekeeper?"
Two things. 1. there are lots of dangerous jobs besides sex work most of which are primarily done by men, like being a police officer or in the military, logging etc. but I assume you're not considering them equivalent given the value they provide society. 2. I'm not saying it's ok for people to be forced into sex work. I'm saying that it's the right of each person to weigh the costs and benefits and decide if they prefer to do sex work than to work at McDonalds.
- "Where is your evidence that the risks are "so high" for sex workers simply because "sex work" is criminalized?"
I said "largely a result of" not "simply because of". As I say in the post there are unique safety concerns that arise with sex work that would be there even if it was legal due to the intimacy involved. But I stand by the claim that there are unnecessary dangers that arise as a result of sex work being illegal. In the rest of your comment you talk about how hard it is for sex workers to make claims of sexual assault for instance - without a regulated industry or safe place to work that would be even harder.
- "If a man pays you for access to all the orifices of your body (anal, oral, vaginal) how do you prove unwanted penetration?"
How do you prove it in any situation? It's always he said/she said. And I expect a legal sex work industry would make it easier not harder to have assault claims reported and taken seriously.
To be clear, I'm not pro sex work. I think it's degrading to both parties, but I'm not someone who feels that I should make that decision for other people.
Organ donations have the additional advantage of avoiding the messy ethical issues you mentioned (abortion, change of plans, etc.). There is really no ethical case against compensated organ donations.
I'm sad to hear you've had those experiences and I appreciate you sharing your perspective.
But, I don't find the argument convincing. Of course, lower class people do a lot of stuff for money that middle class or wealthy people would never do.
You say that those laws will ultimately benefit all of us, but I don't feel you've made an argument explaining why you think that. I've talked about a case where a lot of people would be saved each year by something that people could voluntarily choose to do. When an individual chooses to trade it generally implies they think that the trade is good for them. I'm not suggesting it should be unregulated, they should definitely screen the types of unwell people you're mentioning out, and for kidney donors at least I believe they already require various tests.
I agree with you 100%. Episode 82 of Isabella Malbin’s podcast Whose Body Is It? is a good real world example of many of your points. The woman she interviewed, Marche, had severe endometriosis and as a last resort for a baby decided to use surrogacy, though it didn’t ultimately pan out. Her surrogate was a good friend who had children of her own and insisted she wanted to help a friend who couldn’t. They drafted a whole contract that stated what the surrogate could and couldn’t do, and of course payment, which was no small sum.
Marche describes a meeting she had with her friend after the procedure to implant embryos, during which her friend was eating a deli meat sandwich. This was against their contract due to the listeria risk. Marche describes getting extremely upset over her friend eating something that she explicitly told her not to. It was only in the years following that she realized how wrong it was for her to feel so upset over something an autonomous person chose to do. She felt in that moment she had authority over another person’s body. That she owned her friend’s body, just because she paid for it.
I can’t fathom any situation where that’s justifiable, especially when you consider how disproportionately it negatively impacts low income women.
Thanks for your comment - addressing some of the points:
- "How much risk of physical or psychological damage is there to working at McDonalds? Or as a home health aide? Or as a housekeeper?"
Two things. 1. there are lots of dangerous jobs besides sex work most of which are primarily done by men, like being a police officer or in the military, logging etc. but I assume you're not considering them equivalent given the value they provide society. 2. I'm not saying it's ok for people to be forced into sex work. I'm saying that it's the right of each person to weigh the costs and benefits and decide if they prefer to do sex work than to work at McDonalds.
- "Where is your evidence that the risks are "so high" for sex workers simply because "sex work" is criminalized?"
I said "largely a result of" not "simply because of". As I say in the post there are unique safety concerns that arise with sex work that would be there even if it was legal due to the intimacy involved. But I stand by the claim that there are unnecessary dangers that arise as a result of sex work being illegal. In the rest of your comment you talk about how hard it is for sex workers to make claims of sexual assault for instance - without a regulated industry or safe place to work that would be even harder.
- "If a man pays you for access to all the orifices of your body (anal, oral, vaginal) how do you prove unwanted penetration?"
How do you prove it in any situation? It's always he said/she said. And I expect a legal sex work industry would make it easier not harder to have assault claims reported and taken seriously.
To be clear, I'm not pro sex work. I think it's degrading to both parties, but I'm not someone who feels that I should make that decision for other people.
Will take a look at the LSE paper, thanks!