Enjoyed the read and agree with almost all of this. But whether I buy your framing or Richard's does eventually come down to the margin we're talking about. If you think of incentives and disincentives on a spectrum from slight nudges to full-blown fat shaming (no pun intended), a rational, compassionate society should try the lower cost…
Enjoyed the read and agree with almost all of this. But whether I buy your framing or Richard's does eventually come down to the margin we're talking about. If you think of incentives and disincentives on a spectrum from slight nudges to full-blown fat shaming (no pun intended), a rational, compassionate society should try the lower cost nudges and messaging before it tries shame (as you say, shame is not costless). It's unclear where we on this spectrum. Popular culture seems to have moved on from belittling and lampooning fat people to now sometimes glorifying fatness. I'm not super bothered by this even if it can sometimes be outright dishonest. But a corollary of this is the sensitivity around fatness. Friends will enthusiastically discuss how to get their friend to stop smoking but the same friends would think long and hard before even telling their friend they've been gaining weight. It's very plausible that it's the excessive shaming itself that bred this sensitivity, besides general PC culture. But whatever the cause, it's counterproductive. We need to start talking about obesity as something to either work on or take pills for or ideally both. It's not an identity, not something you need to be squeamish about and not something that makes you immune to your loved one's caring for you, and sometimes even giving you tough love. I'm willing to bet this will yield a world in which fat people are less isolated and alone in their struggles.
1. "a rational, compassionate society should try the lower cost nudges and messaging before it tries shame". I agree with this but feel you're missing the bigger picture. As Andras outlined in his comment, there are many reasons why we've seen increasing rates of obesity over the past 40-50 years, and focusing only on individual behavior misses the broader societal issues going on. My concern is that this individual behavior focus obscures the need for broader research into solutions (more medicinal treatments like Wegovy, maybe fecal transplant or other things that address gut issues that may be causing metabolic dysfunction, better understanding of the role of hormonal balance, issues with the overall food system etc.)
2. "Friends will enthusiastically discuss how to get their friend to stop smoking but the same friends would think long and hard before even telling their friend they've been gaining weight." The reason friends don't tell friends they've gained weight (at least in the female context which I can speak to more confidently) is not just that we're being nice, it's that we're 100% sure the friend is aware. Also, while they may not explicitly tell them they should lose weight they will talk about the various diet and exercise regimes they're trying. Diet and fitness talk is a common water cooler conversation in offices for example in my experience - although I would agree that the fat-activism stuff has encouraged less of this at the margin.
Enjoyed the read and agree with almost all of this. But whether I buy your framing or Richard's does eventually come down to the margin we're talking about. If you think of incentives and disincentives on a spectrum from slight nudges to full-blown fat shaming (no pun intended), a rational, compassionate society should try the lower cost nudges and messaging before it tries shame (as you say, shame is not costless). It's unclear where we on this spectrum. Popular culture seems to have moved on from belittling and lampooning fat people to now sometimes glorifying fatness. I'm not super bothered by this even if it can sometimes be outright dishonest. But a corollary of this is the sensitivity around fatness. Friends will enthusiastically discuss how to get their friend to stop smoking but the same friends would think long and hard before even telling their friend they've been gaining weight. It's very plausible that it's the excessive shaming itself that bred this sensitivity, besides general PC culture. But whatever the cause, it's counterproductive. We need to start talking about obesity as something to either work on or take pills for or ideally both. It's not an identity, not something you need to be squeamish about and not something that makes you immune to your loved one's caring for you, and sometimes even giving you tough love. I'm willing to bet this will yield a world in which fat people are less isolated and alone in their struggles.
A couple of things:
1. "a rational, compassionate society should try the lower cost nudges and messaging before it tries shame". I agree with this but feel you're missing the bigger picture. As Andras outlined in his comment, there are many reasons why we've seen increasing rates of obesity over the past 40-50 years, and focusing only on individual behavior misses the broader societal issues going on. My concern is that this individual behavior focus obscures the need for broader research into solutions (more medicinal treatments like Wegovy, maybe fecal transplant or other things that address gut issues that may be causing metabolic dysfunction, better understanding of the role of hormonal balance, issues with the overall food system etc.)
2. "Friends will enthusiastically discuss how to get their friend to stop smoking but the same friends would think long and hard before even telling their friend they've been gaining weight." The reason friends don't tell friends they've gained weight (at least in the female context which I can speak to more confidently) is not just that we're being nice, it's that we're 100% sure the friend is aware. Also, while they may not explicitly tell them they should lose weight they will talk about the various diet and exercise regimes they're trying. Diet and fitness talk is a common water cooler conversation in offices for example in my experience - although I would agree that the fat-activism stuff has encouraged less of this at the margin.
3. I totally agree that seeing being obese as a part of your identity that you need to protect, as Aubrey Gordon does in this clip I tweeted, is very problematic. https://x.com/arntzgray1/status/1723020289099915445?s=20