nice analysis. I'd agree these dynamics are at play, but tbf I think women initiating divorces is a bit of a messy statistic. In my experience, men are simply more likely to be able to compartimentalise and just ignore a bad relationship and do nothing about it. I also wonder if the relationships themselves are worse or if the marginal woman who earns more feels more independent and likely to make it on her own than one with less money (controlling for relationship quality). A lot of lower income women stay in marriages because they *need* their husbands, but there is not a lot of love.
That being said, I think it is important to highlight that women are responsible for their fair share of relationship breakdowns and understand where male anxiety about this comes from
the other question we need to ask: do we think it's a net positive if women in meh relationships stay in them for financial reasons? I would say maybe yes, but it's hard
I agree that men are more ok with staying in bad relationships - either because they compartmentalize or just because they have lower standards for the type of connection they need to feel satisfied. I also think men tend to have less *really* close relationships outside of the marriage so they're more emotionally dependent on their partner in some ways. But that just explains the general tendency for women to be the initiators of divorce. I think that, as you suggest, these better educated/higher earning women have lower costs from divorce - they're less likely to be making a choice between a bad relationship and living in poverty. But that's not totally out of line with my point, which is that I doubt that (in the American case) a major driver of breakups involving high-status wives is male resentment towards them for their status. I think it's likely more that these women have options, not only to upgrade their partner (although I do think that's part of it), but also just to live independently in comfort. I guess a good way to look at those independently would be to compare the chance of breakup and chance it's initiated by the wife when she makes more on a relative basis vs. when she's wealthy in an absolute sense. If it's more that she just has less financial penalty from leaving we should see that absolute wealth matters more, and if there's more of a relative-status-resentment thing going on the relative income should matter more. Will see if I can test that.
And on whether it's net positive to stay in meh relationships... maybe if there are kids? But I tend to be pretty pro-divorce in those situations tbh, I'm a romantic lol
My hunch is that a big part of women being in love is as you said perceiving their partner as competent. Financial is one of the ways in which this can be fulfilled
Agreed. And men also want to feel that their partner sees them this way. I also wouldn't mind making more than my partner. I actually think high income women should put way, way less weight on their partner's income/wealth... just from a practical standpoint you need their wealth less if you already have enough on your own. And like I said I think there are other ways to inspire your partner (I think that's a good word for what I want as well), or provide them with protection or whatever it is that don't involve making money. I actually think this is less of a thing for middle class women than for upper-middle class and wealthy women. I know a lot of middle class couples where the woman makes more and the man caretakes in other still masculine ways and it works really well.
Don't forget the role that custody plays in this. In my experience men tend to believe (correctly) that women will get custody of the kids in a divorce. n
now im wondering whether women/men really want men to be higher status...is it more about what that symbolizes (ambition, competence, etc.) and not what it actually can provide in reality (money, resources) - and for women, symbolizing nurturing/care over career. do you think high status doesn't matter and it's really about signaling?
Yes, I do. I think that the particular status game of making money is just standing in for a general signal of ability to be a good partner to you and father to your children, which I think can be accomplished through things other than money. But it’s also a signal of genetic fitness - like whatever the way of getting status is in your society a guy who can win that game likely has genes you want for your babies.
if a woman is high status but found other ways of signaling "care" - i wonder if that would offset the negative perception that comes w high status
ive seen really wealthy women (generational wealth) with men with less status/money and it seems to work because they signal care in other ways (i.e., being painters and sitting at home and not having a career despite being more high status - it's almost like they are hiding it and their male partners are then ok w that)
Yes, I think this can work in both directions. Like you sometimes see examples where the woman is way higher status but seems to sort of want the male partner to lead or they make them central to their lives - I don’t know if you saw the Simone Biles’ husband discourse where he said “he’s the catch” lol
Is there a class breakdown in the data anywhere, like white collar compared to blue collar? My gut sense is that liberal(ish) men in white-collar fields don't care that much if their girlfriend/wife makes more than them not just because of accepted liberal values, but also because most white-collar work doesn't carry as much masculine social value of blue-collar work. I could see deep resentment if the couple were in the same field and both were passionate about their work, though, because there'd be direct comparison and competition.
I can also see a lot of self-fulling prophecies happening. For instance, both the woman and man may not mind the woman making more. But then each start to overthink, or even imagine, perceived slights from the other out of paranoia (e.g. the man becomes convinced the woman will ditch him and the woman becomes convinced the man is quietly embittered and will one day lash out), which then do cause genuine resentments to fester.
There's a household income variable which I could take a look at - there's actually quite a lot in this dataset so I might explore some other analyses with it. I agree that liberal men in white-collar fields probably don't mind their partner making more (unless she minds of course). But my anecdotal experience is that men in blue collar jobs with women in middle class white collar (and slightly higher paid) jobs can actually work well - I think this is because these men are masculine in a bunch of traditional ways, so the fact that they might make less doesn't really threaten that. I think it's really the high earning women who are more likely to care about making more than their partner, even if they don't want to care. I think this is probably because those high earning women value status and money since they've competed really hard to get it for themselves!
Also agree on the self-fulfilling thing, I think this happens even when people are dating - like Pavneet on Indian matchmaking always bringing up how her success is intimidating to men, including on a date (!) like probably going to make your date feel weird if you say that.
Aw, I didn't actually know they ended up divorced! But yeah I think when the gap between partners gets that large it's probably really challenging to manage... I think the fact that he wasn't really doing his own thing which she could be impressed by, not just that she was more successful, would probably make that difficult.
I agree that women "feel[ing] resentment towards their husband for not being higher status" is the more relevant factor. The tradeoff of female status: women tend to prefer to marry men who make more than them. Yet men don't have as strong a preference for rich women. Thus, the more money a woman makes, the fewer desirable romantic options she has. I wonder if this partly explains female college major/career choices, which, on average, are less lucrative (in addition to the thing/people interest divide)?
The tragedy of the modern world is that the internet lets me find women who are opinionated, articulate, and wise, then I find out they all live in New York somehow
I don't think this research really tells us what you suggest it does. I suspect it's less telling us about which partner is more likely to abandon the marriage and more telling us about the relative costs to leaving a dead marriage or how men and women react.
For instance, especially given that women are still heavily favored in custody, I suspect that men are simply more likely to go sleep around and let the woman file for divorce if she wants to.
nice analysis. I'd agree these dynamics are at play, but tbf I think women initiating divorces is a bit of a messy statistic. In my experience, men are simply more likely to be able to compartimentalise and just ignore a bad relationship and do nothing about it. I also wonder if the relationships themselves are worse or if the marginal woman who earns more feels more independent and likely to make it on her own than one with less money (controlling for relationship quality). A lot of lower income women stay in marriages because they *need* their husbands, but there is not a lot of love.
That being said, I think it is important to highlight that women are responsible for their fair share of relationship breakdowns and understand where male anxiety about this comes from
the other question we need to ask: do we think it's a net positive if women in meh relationships stay in them for financial reasons? I would say maybe yes, but it's hard
I agree that men are more ok with staying in bad relationships - either because they compartmentalize or just because they have lower standards for the type of connection they need to feel satisfied. I also think men tend to have less *really* close relationships outside of the marriage so they're more emotionally dependent on their partner in some ways. But that just explains the general tendency for women to be the initiators of divorce. I think that, as you suggest, these better educated/higher earning women have lower costs from divorce - they're less likely to be making a choice between a bad relationship and living in poverty. But that's not totally out of line with my point, which is that I doubt that (in the American case) a major driver of breakups involving high-status wives is male resentment towards them for their status. I think it's likely more that these women have options, not only to upgrade their partner (although I do think that's part of it), but also just to live independently in comfort. I guess a good way to look at those independently would be to compare the chance of breakup and chance it's initiated by the wife when she makes more on a relative basis vs. when she's wealthy in an absolute sense. If it's more that she just has less financial penalty from leaving we should see that absolute wealth matters more, and if there's more of a relative-status-resentment thing going on the relative income should matter more. Will see if I can test that.
And on whether it's net positive to stay in meh relationships... maybe if there are kids? But I tend to be pretty pro-divorce in those situations tbh, I'm a romantic lol
That would be interesting to test.
My hunch is that a big part of women being in love is as you said perceiving their partner as competent. Financial is one of the ways in which this can be fulfilled
I wouldn’t mind making more than my partner (provided we had enough money overall) , but I wouldn’t like him to be an uninspired bum
Agreed. And men also want to feel that their partner sees them this way. I also wouldn't mind making more than my partner. I actually think high income women should put way, way less weight on their partner's income/wealth... just from a practical standpoint you need their wealth less if you already have enough on your own. And like I said I think there are other ways to inspire your partner (I think that's a good word for what I want as well), or provide them with protection or whatever it is that don't involve making money. I actually think this is less of a thing for middle class women than for upper-middle class and wealthy women. I know a lot of middle class couples where the woman makes more and the man caretakes in other still masculine ways and it works really well.
Don't forget the role that custody plays in this. In my experience men tend to believe (correctly) that women will get custody of the kids in a divorce. n
Good point, will try to break it out by couple has or does not have kids
now im wondering whether women/men really want men to be higher status...is it more about what that symbolizes (ambition, competence, etc.) and not what it actually can provide in reality (money, resources) - and for women, symbolizing nurturing/care over career. do you think high status doesn't matter and it's really about signaling?
Yes, I do. I think that the particular status game of making money is just standing in for a general signal of ability to be a good partner to you and father to your children, which I think can be accomplished through things other than money. But it’s also a signal of genetic fitness - like whatever the way of getting status is in your society a guy who can win that game likely has genes you want for your babies.
if a woman is high status but found other ways of signaling "care" - i wonder if that would offset the negative perception that comes w high status
ive seen really wealthy women (generational wealth) with men with less status/money and it seems to work because they signal care in other ways (i.e., being painters and sitting at home and not having a career despite being more high status - it's almost like they are hiding it and their male partners are then ok w that)
Yes, I think this can work in both directions. Like you sometimes see examples where the woman is way higher status but seems to sort of want the male partner to lead or they make them central to their lives - I don’t know if you saw the Simone Biles’ husband discourse where he said “he’s the catch” lol
Exactly
Is there a class breakdown in the data anywhere, like white collar compared to blue collar? My gut sense is that liberal(ish) men in white-collar fields don't care that much if their girlfriend/wife makes more than them not just because of accepted liberal values, but also because most white-collar work doesn't carry as much masculine social value of blue-collar work. I could see deep resentment if the couple were in the same field and both were passionate about their work, though, because there'd be direct comparison and competition.
I can also see a lot of self-fulling prophecies happening. For instance, both the woman and man may not mind the woman making more. But then each start to overthink, or even imagine, perceived slights from the other out of paranoia (e.g. the man becomes convinced the woman will ditch him and the woman becomes convinced the man is quietly embittered and will one day lash out), which then do cause genuine resentments to fester.
There's a household income variable which I could take a look at - there's actually quite a lot in this dataset so I might explore some other analyses with it. I agree that liberal men in white-collar fields probably don't mind their partner making more (unless she minds of course). But my anecdotal experience is that men in blue collar jobs with women in middle class white collar (and slightly higher paid) jobs can actually work well - I think this is because these men are masculine in a bunch of traditional ways, so the fact that they might make less doesn't really threaten that. I think it's really the high earning women who are more likely to care about making more than their partner, even if they don't want to care. I think this is probably because those high earning women value status and money since they've competed really hard to get it for themselves!
Also agree on the self-fulfilling thing, I think this happens even when people are dating - like Pavneet on Indian matchmaking always bringing up how her success is intimidating to men, including on a date (!) like probably going to make your date feel weird if you say that.
Hardly scientific, of course, but it’s interesting to watch the Ali Wong specials in order knowing that they end up divorced.
Aw, I didn't actually know they ended up divorced! But yeah I think when the gap between partners gets that large it's probably really challenging to manage... I think the fact that he wasn't really doing his own thing which she could be impressed by, not just that she was more successful, would probably make that difficult.
I agree that women "feel[ing] resentment towards their husband for not being higher status" is the more relevant factor. The tradeoff of female status: women tend to prefer to marry men who make more than them. Yet men don't have as strong a preference for rich women. Thus, the more money a woman makes, the fewer desirable romantic options she has. I wonder if this partly explains female college major/career choices, which, on average, are less lucrative (in addition to the thing/people interest divide)?
The tragedy of the modern world is that the internet lets me find women who are opinionated, articulate, and wise, then I find out they all live in New York somehow
Excellent analysis. Wonder who calls the shots or initiates split ups in egalitarian marriages?:))
I don't think this research really tells us what you suggest it does. I suspect it's less telling us about which partner is more likely to abandon the marriage and more telling us about the relative costs to leaving a dead marriage or how men and women react.
For instance, especially given that women are still heavily favored in custody, I suspect that men are simply more likely to go sleep around and let the woman file for divorce if she wants to.
This is what I've seen with couples I've known.
Accords with my intuition, but nice to see the data